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Poster: AshesRising Date: Dec 5, 2007 2:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Hanukkah 2008: "My Sisters & Brothers" video

For My Forum Friends celebrating Hanukkah:
"My Brothers and Sisters"
Jerry Garcia Band video(1990-09-01 - Shoreline Amphitheatre)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By8CN3MQNKQ

Psalm 91(partial):
Those who live in the shelter of the Most High will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from the fatal plague....

....Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor fear the dangers of the day, nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday....

My Sisters & Brothers (partial):
I want to say to my sisters and my brothers
Keep the faith
When the storm flies and the wind blows
Go on at a steady pace....

...Our bible reads
Thou shalt not be afraid
Of the terror by night
Nor the arrow that flies by day
Nor for the pestilence
That walketh in the darkness
Nor for the destruction
That waiteth in the noonday hour...

...This world is not our home
We are only passing through
Our trail is all made up
Way beyond the blue
Let us do the very best that we can
While we're travelin' through this land
We can all be together
Shaking a hand
When we make it to the promised land...."
[Music & Lyrics: Charles Johnson]

"Strangers stopping strangers just to shake their hand
Everybody is playing in the heart of gold band...."
--- AshesRising

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Poster: Jerrob Hungar Date: Dec 5, 2007 6:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hanukkah 2008: 'My Sisters & Brothers' video

Ashes, Thanks for this. It has the potential to be a very interesting thread; Jerry's religious and philosophical influences.
I've always thought of Jerry as representing Western philosophical tradition and Hunter as representing the Eastern. eg Buddhist philosophy.
I'm probably quite wrong but as a simple minded mystic agnostic, I tend to agree with Robert Anton Wilson's assertion "If you think you know what the hell is going on, you're probably full of shit."

Happy Hannukah to our Jewish friends and forumites. For those of you who are interested and have no idea what this Jewish Holiday means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannukah. For those of you who are not interested, Hanukkah is also known as the festival of lights. It is the story of standing up for what you believe in. It reminds us not to remain silent in the face of oppression, and not to surrender our rights and identities.
:¬)

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Dec 5, 2007 6:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hanukkah 2008: 'My Sisters & Brothers' video

Jerrob Hungar: Jerry said that he considered himself "kinda Buddhist," but it was a half-hearted comment. Another example of where language breaks down ....and the music spoke volumes.

Here is a link from a Hunter entry in his journal:
http://www.hunterarchive.com/files/newjournal/56journal_2006.html#anchor41232951

7.30.06
Faith? Well actually I kind of tacitly believe, without spending much time explaining it to myself or others, that as long as I'm doing what I feel talented for and am driven to do, and not acting too selfishly about it, I'm acting appropriately for what I am. Should I put that aside to spend time acquiring faith in something else? Somebody's religion? Somebody's politics? What if I later found out I was wasting the time I should have been spending doing what I feel I'm best cut out to do? I'm certain there's something bigger than my brain and my ego going on. I kind of take that for granted, how could it be otherwise? I'd love to believe I'm working in concert with whatever that is. I hope so. If that's faith, then I have it. If not, show me a sign.

8.03.06
Belief? Without resorting to a dictionary, which reports what a lexicographer believes, I define it as logical interpretation of what I've actually seen or that which, putting two and two together, dependably yields four. Faith, in contradistinction, is confidence in what I have not seen but dearly hope to be the case. It is more rugged than belief since not amenable to logical dissection or disproving, as in the case of Einstein's theory of which he said something like "all the experiments in the world cannot prove relativity right but one could prove it wrong."
============================================================

One of my favorite quotes was spoken by Albert Einstein: "I want to know God's thoughts...........the rest are details."

A "mystic agnostice,"(?) ...never heard that one before ...and you're surely not "simple-minded."
--- AshesRising

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2007 7:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hanukkah 2008: 'My Sisters & Brothers' video

Ha--yeah, I was intrigued by the comment of Jerrob's as well. Have to give it some thought--does it imply that the agnostical neutrality is mystical at the same time? Or that it is somehow cryptic and inscrutable? Or is it contradictory and informative at the same time? Or am I just too dense to get it?

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Dec 5, 2007 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hanukkah 2008: 'My Sisters & Brothers' video

William Tell: You are certainly not "too dense" to get it. As I thought about Jerrob Hungar's comment, I realized how similar it is to a lot Hunter's lyrics ...something so compelling that if forces the reader to dig deeper. Or it could be that he hasn't recovered from the discs you sent him.

For you:
William Tell overture - part 2 (1914)
Performed by: Sodero's Band
Composed by: G. Rossini
http://www.archive.org/details/EDIS-SRP-0197-05

Have you ever read, "The Art of War?"
Later,
--- AshesRising

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2007 8:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

Not that I agree 100% with him, but Zappa's little ditty "Dumb All Over" does raise some valid questions.

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You cant run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You cant run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

Okay, well, now I demand equal time for "Intelligent Design" music, by, (isn't it obvious?), intelligent musicians.

The Eleven is proof positive that the DEAD are the leaders of this elitist group...it proves that songs had to be designed because someone thought of it, and then they practiced, and once it was "created" (ooppps, meant to say "designed"!), it never changed.

Well, okay, I must revise my theory, but please admit that it is a scientific theory because I say it is and dogmatism is all that counts in science, so my intelligent design music paradigm is as good as Astrology, in PA or elsewhere.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

If the only thing that survives from our "civilization" to be discovered in some far flung future is a recording of The Eleven they will think that those who made such sounds were like gods who walked the earth. They will envy those who partook of such wonders on a daily basis.


But you can still take intelligent design and stick it where the monkey sticks his nuts.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

only pastafarians know the TRUTH...

http://www.venganza.org/

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

Infidel! Bow before Bob!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_UnbySrOQo

This post was modified by robthewordsmith on 2007-12-05 18:53:18

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

Thanks for that; I actually use a variation of Bob Dobbs as a sign name. X-day is coming (but didn't it already come and go?)

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Poster: bigbossdan Date: Dec 5, 2007 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

Damn, beat me to it. I knew this thread deserved a link to the FSM!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2007 10:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Intelligent Design

Hey nothing else will fit in there! They have REALLY big nuts (chimps anyhow).

Not sure how much of "this" gets across the pond, but a recent case in PA was decided against including ID in science along with Evolution (whewww) and the conservative, 'christian judge' to his credit recognized it was religious in intent and application. What was really funny was the star witness, who made a fool of himself, for ID did in fact say that by his defn Astrology was scientific.

Really a great moment in legal history.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 5, 2007 8:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

I miss Frank more than words can say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQcE2dq3YD0&feature=related

The only presidential campaign I would have quit my job to work for on full time.

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Dec 5, 2007 8:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

LSDH: sweet hijack.....

--- AshesRising

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Poster: Jerrob Hungar Date: Dec 5, 2007 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

Ashes
The following are ideas picked up from a dialogue with the Dalai Lama by Daniel Goleman.
"What are destructive emotions?" "Destructive emotions are those emotions that are harmful to oneself or others."
Is it possible to be completely and irreversibly free of any or all of the destructive emotions? These questions are equally pertinent to the Western and the Buddhist traditions We have raised these questions as far back as our ancient heritage: the Bible, Plato, Aristotle. In Buddhism they have always been a central concern.
It is pretty well accepted scientifically that human emotions are universal, which speaks to a philosophical question about human nature. Are humans inherently loving and compassionate or inherently selfish or do they operate on a spectrum that includes both?

What are humans really like deep down inside? The three main answers that we see again and again in the West 1. Rational egoists 2. Selfish and compassionate. 3. Compassionate and selfish

1. Each person watches out only for his or her own good, but sees rationally that only by being nice to others is it possible to get what he or she wants. In economics as well as in philosophy many people think that things work smoothly only because each of us is smart enough to see that our own good depends on treating others well.
2. Its quite clear that whether you put selfishness before or after compassion. it's necessary for survival. ie human infants.
Those who believe that people are selfish first, think that once we have taken care of our own basic needs, then there is time left over to be loving and compassionate of others.
3. The people who take the third position say that we're basically compassionate, loving creatures, but if there is scarcity of resources such as food, clothing and shelter, then compassion will drop out and our selfish side will emerge.

In Buddhism, the usual term for compassion includes both self and others. When you speak of compassion, it can apply to oneself as well as others, unlike Western culture.

We have a view in the West that you can love others only if you love yourself - that if you have low self-esteem, self-hatred, or lack of self respect, then you are no position to love other people. So many people in the West nowadays have very low self-esteem - even self-contempt.

In the Buddhist view, caring for oneself and others is fundamental to human existence and that compassion is more than simply feeling for another - empathy - but a concerned, heartfelt caring, wanting to do something to relieve the person's suffering.

I haven't really thought out the difference between Jerry's and Hunter's philosophies. I haven't really thought about what their philosophies might be and I wasn't thinking of faith or belief. The reason I made that statement was just a thought that songs like Wharf Rat and China Doll reflected the Buddhist philosophy of compassion for oneself and others, while Jerry tended towards songs in the Christian tradition like My Brothers and Sisters and The Maker. I know, pretty tenuous.

Finally, before I bore you to death; an explanation of the mystic agnostic thing. Mystic, because I think it is possible to 'awaken our mystical faculties and develop spiritual awareness. We can realize the relationship between our individual life and the Infinite Consciousness which gives and sustains all life.'
Mystics come from all walks of life, from all nations, races, religious and philosophical perspectives. A mystic may be a business professional, a child, a homemaker, a clergyman, a manual laborer, a devout member of any of the world’s faiths, an agnostic, an artist, an invalid.
A mystic is any person who realizes, and is fortunate to maintain, a conscious connection with the Infinite Consciousness — the Infinite Spirit — or any of Its attributes, such as Love, Wisdom, Power, Goodness, Transformation, Wholeness, or Creativity, to name the main ones.' At least, thats what I'd like to aspire to. http://www.themystic.org/crave/mystic.htm

The agnostic thing because, like R.A.W., 'I find the universe so staggering that I just don't have any faith in my ability to grasp it. I don't think the human stomach can eat everything, and I'm not quite sure my mind can understand everything, so I don't pretend that it can.' http://www.levity.com/mavericks/raw.htm

p.s. Ashes, I just thought there was a difference between simple minded and simple-minded.
:¬)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 6, 2007 5:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the unbelieving atheist chimes in

If it’s ok I’d like to chip in here with my unbelieving atheist’s perspective.

Some people are without doubt more creative that others – that’s only to be expected as a natural genetic variation within the population. But creativity is no good without practice. Jerry Garcia was a creative musician but he was also absolutely dedicated to practising, learning chords and scales until he could play them backwards, forwards and inside out. Familiarity with the form gave him the freedom to express any musical idea that entered his head. Without the long hours of practise the creativity would have had no outlet. Expertise comes with effort.

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.exp.perf.html

The idea that midnight sun expresses of not being ‘consciously in control’ doesn’t mean that the musician is being guided by some ‘infinite consciousness’ or any other outside force. What it means is that long hours of practise have ingrained the finger positions and movements the musician needs to make in order to produce the sounds desired into muscle memory so he/she can do it without thinking about it. It’s like learning to ride a bike – once you’ve mastered it you just ride with no thought to the action involved at all.

If I’m going to slot myself into one of your categories, Jerrob (and I just hate to do that) then I guess it would be that of the rational egoist. Civilization didn’t come about through compassion or being nice to each other but from the realization that belonging to a tribe whose members worked together gave you more chance of survival than trying to make it on your own. Without settled agricultural communities providing the basic needs of food and shelter there would have been no time to learn and practise new skills and no civilization.

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Poster: Telephone Toughguy Date: Dec 6, 2007 12:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the unbelieving atheist chimes in

Thank you.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 5, 2007 1:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: "Infinite Consciousness"?

JerryRobert: W-O-W!

i apologize in advance for my usual self-centered response...i'm not sure i can otherwise relate, so i will try to confine my commentary to "creativity"

when i learn to play a jazz standard, i play a simple four to the bar walking bass line on the fretless bass to allow myself some familiarity with the form...after a time "things" begin to evolve...melodically, rhythmically, harmonically...

where does this evolution comes from?
many artists agree on the following;

- much of it cannot be theoretically explained
- the more you try, the less it happens (left brain getting in the way of the right brain?)
- you do not feel as though you are consciously in control in the sense that you feel more like an observer, rather than a performer ("the music played the band")

- is "it" a connection to "Infinite Consciousness"?
- is it possible to know for sure?
- will it make a difference to know?

no answers, only more questions from this agnostic mystic

many thanks for sharing your thought provoking words

much to think about while i get back to watching myself smear drywall mud in the unfinished basement...

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Poster: Jerrob Hungar Date: Dec 6, 2007 4:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'Infinite Consciousness'?

Hi Midnight Sun, Nice to see you again. Please don't apologise, your presence is always very welcome. I enjoyed reading your post because I feel you got what I was trying to put across. We all seek our own answers in our own way.
I read your post the other day about spending so much time in the forum and I could relate to everything you said. I learned to involve my family in the forum by telling them about the kind and generous people here. They know how much joy I get from the Dead and now they ask me how things are going with folks here as though you are distant members of our family.
Anyway, what are you listening to as you do that drywalling?

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 6, 2007 3:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'Infinite Consciousness'?

hey jerrob:

your original post is monumental to say the least...still much to think about...thanks for your kind reply and sharing your thoughts

my wife (fine arts grad - water colour) and i have been discussing the parallels between music and art for the last 20 years...some of those conversations contain ideas discussed on this forum

the creative process is remarkably similar for both disciplines, as i suspect it is for all artistic disciplines...at times it is difficult to "let go" of formal training...all too often the tendency is to cling to the learning process, forgetting the purpose...The Doors lyric, "learn to forget" always comes to mind

where does it all come from?
- i don't know

what i can say is, there is nothing quite like the experience of finally getting past the struggle and arriving at "the flow" (Jerry's term)...almost always the struggle is compounded from trying to do too much



what am i listening to? more often than not, the stuff i hear in my mind...sometimes variations on the music i have been working on, sometimes Dead, sometimes other than Dead and variations thereof...sometimes music is front and center, sometimes a background to the thoughts i ponder...i've noticed that work from the neck down (drywall taping certainly fits that category for me) seems to free up the rest of my energy...and drift off...into a...free form...jam...

hows about you?

This post was modified by midnight sun on 2007-12-06 23:15:31

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Dec 5, 2007 3:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

Jerrob Hungar: Thank you for these substantive, thought-provoking posts. Tremendous. I just hope you realize I wasn't take a stab at you by commenting on your "simple minded mystic agnostic" description of your self....did you(?) If so, I regret it...

--- AshesRising

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Poster: Jerrob Hungar Date: Dec 6, 2007 2:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Equal Time: Another Musician's Take on Religion

Ashes, not at all. Thank you for your post and the video of Jerry at the Shoreline. I am just happy to be able to contribute something back to the forum. This is an oasis for me, a source of warmth, light, sustenance and inspiration, not least from your good self. I began taking part here about a year ago and I am so glad I did. I have received much more than I could possibly return and I feel privileged to be part of this community. I urge anyone out there who may be struggling in darkness to climb on board. There are a lot of very fine people here.
And no I didn't think you were having a dig and anyway, you're welcome to have a stab at me anytime! :¬)
Does this mean that instead of wishing you Happy Birthday or Merry Christmas, we should wish you Happy Hurricane or Merry Blizzard?
p.s. Have you seen this? I love the expression on Jerry's face. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jh0NELKbq0&feature=related

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 6, 2007 3:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: a small hijack

JH - have you had any thoughts yet regarding the Suwannee Other Ones show? Let me know if you want it and I'll get it done for you!

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Poster: Jerrob Hungar Date: Dec 6, 2007 4:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: a small hijack

Hi Rob. Hope work is being kind to you on this dreech Thursday. Sorry I haven't got back to you yet. Senility's catching up. I've reached the stage where I carry around a notebook to jot down reminders. Then I forget the notebook.
I would be most grateful for the Suwannee Music Aud. From your description, it sounds irresistible.
If you've got some time (10:21), this is the Wharf Rat from the Closing of Winterland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXSueu_O79E&feature=related

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